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Post by Huh on Jan 10, 2005 16:07:02 GMT -8
Are you talking about the gun range? Mountain Cove is doing fine. But I did hear that the gun range was flooded.
You know where a good place to move the gun club would be, in San Dimas. They have that Western theme and have all of that open land between Puddlingstone Dam and the 57 Freeway. That would be a great place for a gun club. It even fits in with the San Dimas theme.
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Post by AmericanSoldier05 on Jan 12, 2005 0:45:46 GMT -8
This is a sad state of affairs when a small group of gun haters decide to jump on a bandwangon and try to once again destroy a fundamental American right. I know what I'm going to say here is going to give me grief from many but someone has to say the truth since so many on here obviously don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.
I am a gun owner and a soldier and comparing the noise of the gunclub to a warzone would make me laugh, if I hadn't already been in combat and seen the real thing. The fact that someone would use such a poor analogy is in and of itself a joke especially since that person has never seen combat, pray you never have too.
Also, to MtCove03, the partial report you posted is misleading from the start considering that the Violence Policy Center is a very vocal anti-gun group that wants the elimination of all guns everywhere. The fact that they would side with another very liberal group, like the Enviornmental Working Group, and say that guns produce poisons etc. doesn't surprise me. The Violence Policy Center is the same group that claimed that the 9/11 terrorists got weapons from American gun shows and that gun shows supply the majority of guns to terrorists. LOL
I guess terrorists would want to pay $2000 to $4000 for one fully auto AK-47 after they go through the ATF and FBI checks required to purchase what is classified as a Class-3 firearm i.e. fully auto. Then pay the $400 for a Class-3 license. Or, they could do what they actually do and go to a place like Afghanistan or Somalia and buy one off a street vender and it would come with extra magazines and 4000 rounds of ammo and all that only for $200 American dollars. Give me a break!
You knew there might be noise when you agreed to live here and signed a disclosure for it. Some on here claim that just because you signed the disclosure that it doesn't matter and a club that has been there for over 60 years has to go because you don't like the fact that you are hearing gunshots. Gunshots you were told, and agreed to live with, might be there.
California is suffereing because businesses have been leaving by the gross because the liberal controlled legislature, and pretty much every other branch of government except, now, for the governor's office, has totally screwed up the state for years. Property values will rise regardless of whether or not this club is here because everything else is moneywise is rising in the state. It would be nice if people would get this "ME ME ME" attitude out of the discussion. You have about as much right to drive someone else out of their business as I have to come to your house and force you out because I don't like how your house looks.
As a side note, I decided to look at a map of the area and I discovered something very interesting. If you look at a map, you will see that these homes, and the whinners, are by far much closer to the 210 Freeway, a huge and noisy highway, than the range. That got me thinking hard and it would make sense that homes right near a freeway would be getting more noise from the freeway, since the freeway operates 24 hours a day compared to the range, which closes at dusk. I have yet to hear anyone complain that the road must be moved because of the noise pollution it creates. Why don't they move the road since, based on distance alone, it has to be creating more noise than the gun range?
Right now Moutain Cove is being turned into a battle cry for pro-gun forces as another example of how freedom is destroyed in what is being called, The People's Republic of California. California has many more pressing and serious problems than a gunclub. Maybe people need to start focusing on them and help keep what few business, that haven't fled, that we have left.
This noise complaint nonsense and is just a blind. The fact remains that a few liberal residents just don't like having guns around, whether they cause a problem or not. Noise is just an excuse and I for one am not fooled by the rhetoric many on this board are using to mask the true reasons for this attack on a legitimate business and the rights of it's owner, those that use the facility and freedom as a whole. Those who are just jumping onto the bandwagon should be ashamed of themselves. This is one soldier who wants his children to grow up in the same free America that he got from his parents.
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Post by McLite on Jan 12, 2005 8:15:25 GMT -8
As for the graffiti, I have driven through most of Azusa and have not seen very much graffiti. Well that is spew-my-cofee-on-the-keyboard funny. Have you seen the new soundwall on the 210 freeway or even the wall on the other side? COVERED with graffiti. Where do you think those taggers come from? The neighborhoods south and just north of the fwy suffer the same nuisances, and when you have that, it attracts even bigger problems. More has to be done (and trying to say there are no problems definteitly doesn't help!). The only thing that puts CC&R's in a different category is that they're privately enforced by an association. The city DOES have codes (hence Code Enforcement Department) to enforce, such as front lawn upkeep, no furniture, junk, trash can storage, vehicles parked on lawns, disabled vehicles visible to street...... all of those are part of city code, and all of those problems exist in certain areas of Azusa, and in the opinion of MANY, aren't getting any better. I think the only ones who'd be ''fighting'' the improvements I just described, also mentioned in a previous post, are ones who insist the problems are being exaggerated. I agree the downtown needs improvement; that's a no-brainer. But it's irresponsible to ignore problems in existing neighborhoods and "just go with the theory" that an improved downtown or new home development will eventually fix everything else. Also, all of Azusa's problem neighborhoods, like the ones I mentioned around the freeways, aren't exactly walking distance to the downtown. I don't think anyone's making the downtown as particular of an issue as you are. I'm pretty sure no one suggested there should be some particular order. What, you think our city council is incapable of multitasking? More agressive code enforcement and better, more far-reaching solutions to graffiti problems. Having a better relationship between the city hall staff and police department would be a step in the right direction. |
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Post by Jumping In on Jan 12, 2005 10:05:27 GMT -8
Regarding AmericanSoldier05's comments. Your obviously baiting people to get angry by spewing lies. And it sounds like the pro gun people are being lied to as well. Many people who support the gun club being closed own guns. Some of them currently work for and/or have previously worked for the police and sheriff departments. We don't hate guns. We are not trying to take anyones guns away. Anyone that says so is flat out lying. I don't see any point in responding to lies other than to clarify what is actually going on. Have a good day!
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mike
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Post by mike on Jan 12, 2005 11:29:16 GMT -8
American Soldier05, I hope you were not in charge of maps and navigation because otherwise your fellow troops would have been in a lot of trouble  The gun range is about a mile from mountain cove while the freeway is over three miles away. Also this is not about taking away anyone's right to use their guns. It is about how this right conflicts with the rights of others who actually live here (Mountain Cove residents AND those who lived in the area before). there is another shooting range (Burro canyon) only 9 miles into the canyon which would not bother anyone as it is in the National Forest. Mike |
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Post by AmericanSoldier05 on Jan 12, 2005 18:34:01 GMT -8
Jumping In I am not trying to bait anyone, I am saying the truth and attacking me for it still doesn't change that. I am perplexed as to why people suddenly now want to remove a business that was here long before most anyone else here was. You knew there might be noise and you still agreed to live here so now live with your decision. One letter get's sent and then suddenly people start coming out of the woodwork in support of it? Obviously, it wasn't so bad before because if it was a "warzone", as some have claimed, I would have thought many people would have complained many times about it long before now. It doesn't make sense. As for your comments Mike, you can insult me all you want too but that doesn't change any facts. Most homes are closer to the freeway than the range and since I am a Mechanized Infantry commander I'll let my men and my commanders decided if my map reading skills are sufficient, they must be since I was promoted last month and didn't lose a single man in either Afghanistan or Iraq. This issue is not directly about taking away anyone's guns but that is the obvious next step. When you take away the places people have to shoot their firearms you take away the reason many own firearms. What's the point of having a gun if you can't take it out and shoot it from time to time? And don't try to say for home protection because if you can't practice with your firearm you can't say you know how to use it effectively, practice makes perfect I have fought against anti-gun forces for years and this is one of the many tactics they use to limit gun use and gun owners. The ultimate goal is to get rid of guns. Many here say they own guns but I have yet to meet a real gun owner that says they want more gun restrictions and want fewer and fewer places in which to practice their hobby. You say it isn't about taking away anyone's rights but what about the rights of the Club? What about the rights of those that use the Club? You say that this is about the rights of others but then say you want to take away the rights of some to support the rights of others? I can't get over that kind of hypocracy. As for another range, why should this club be stripped of it's right to operate? What has it done to anyone? Has anyone died because of it? Have the people that use it shot at houses? Have children gotten lead poisoning from drinking ground water? I still can't understand how stripping other's of their rights benefits the the rights of others and the greater good? |
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Post by Jumping on Jan 13, 2005 8:59:16 GMT -8
American Soldier05,
I think that pleanty of us have already explained our reasons. Just read some of the previous posts. Whether you want to accept them or not is your business. I don't see any reason to keep repeating the expainations. You are just not willing to accept them. You have made up your own reasons and don't want to believe what other people are saying.
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Post by FEDUP on Jan 13, 2005 14:33:44 GMT -8
American soldier,
You obviously, (as evidenced by your comment about the freeway being closer than the range) do not live in the city of Azusa so you don't care about our rights. Why don't you ask your city to let you put this range in your back yard. This isssue is not about gun ownership and you can practice your use of your weapon at many indoor ranges as well as outdoor ones that are not in populated areas. The nature of this hobby requires a remote area. this issue is similar to the smoking issue. Ones right to smoke should not infringe on another's right to breathe. Also did you know about the many ATF violations that the gun club was cited with? For example: Licensee failed to report a multiple sale or disposition on at least 6 occasions Citation# 18 U.S.C 923(g) (3) (A) / 27CFR 478.126. Or how about " Licensee failed on at least 5 occassions (10 total firearms) to conduct a background check Citation # 18 U.S.C 922(b)(2). Then there is always the 41 occasions on which they failed to record a firearm in the bound book within the prescribed period of time set forth in the regulations. citation # 18 U.S.C. 922(m). There are too many more to list, these violations and more resulted from an inspection conducted by the ATF for the period between 1/28/04 to 2/10/04.
It seems this would be agreat place for terrorists to equip themselves.
American soldier I respect and salute your service for our country and we are just as patriotic as you are but this is not an issue for people who do not live in Azusa to decide.
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Another American Soldier
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Post by Another American Soldier on Jan 13, 2005 14:41:00 GMT -8
Hey American Soldier,
I'm glad I finally read something that makes sense. I have to admit that you will be getting slammed for your point of view. It's all part of the me, me, me, attitude. I wonder what ever happened to the issue we had about the deceitful business practices between the city of Azusa and Standard Pacific. That just seemed to crash and burn quickly. People were told about the taxes and then claimed they did'nt know. Now this about the gun club. It just seems like some people are not happy unless they're complaining about something, although it has alot to do with the anti gun loving liberal left. Tell our boys in Iraq or Afghanistan it sounds like a war zone, they would tell you they would love to be in our war 8 hours a day in the daylight surrounded by nature. Get real!
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Post by Steve on Jan 13, 2005 15:37:16 GMT -8
More agressive code enforcement and better, more far-reaching solutions to graffiti problems. Having a better relationship between the city hall staff and police department would be a step in the right direction. Hello McLite, I was wondering if you could be more specific in regards to code enforcement. What specifically in the codes would you like the city to work more on? I think that if we knew specifically, we would be able to ask them to work on these things. As for the graffitti, I have not seen the graffiti on the freeway. I typically enter the freeway from Grand Avenue in Glendora and Irwindale Avenue in Irwindale. It is usually easier for me because of my daily routine on things that I need to do. I don't normally have very many activities in Azusa, and therefore do not typically enter the freeway from the Azusa onramps. I'm pretty sure that the freeways would be CalTrans jurisdiction. The city does not have control over the freeways. I just think that if you are going to blame the city management, it should be for things that happen within the city. Of course this city does have a lot of problems that need to be dealt with. I think suggestions need to made on how to deal with them rather than just complaining about the codes not being enforced. I would like to know if there is a way to stop people from parking on the yards. I have seen a couple people doing that. It would also be nice to minimize the use of over night parking on the streets. |
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Post by Irrelevant on Jan 13, 2005 17:28:37 GMT -8
Hey Steve and McLite, This sight is for discussions on the gun club, check out the title. Take your other buisness elsewhere!
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Post by Doubt It on Jan 13, 2005 17:32:14 GMT -8
[quote author=Guest-Another American Soldier sure!  |
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Post by tekmann on Jan 14, 2005 8:29:29 GMT -8
Jumping In I am not trying to bait anyone, I am saying the truth and attacking me for it still doesn't change that. I am perplexed as to why people suddenly now want to remove a business that was here long before most anyone else here was. You knew there might be noise and you still agreed to live here so now live with your decision. One letter get's sent and then suddenly people start coming out of the woodwork in support of it? Obviously, it wasn't so bad before because if it was a "warzone", as some have claimed, I would have thought many people would have complained many times about it long before now. It doesn't make sense. You can expect to be attacked for stating the obvious. It's nothing new under the sun to see people move someplace and immediately want to take over and change longstanding aspects of life in the area. Back in the sixties, Inglewood residents wanted to close LAX because they didn't like the noise created by all the airliners... despite the fact that the area they'd moved to was in the approach pattern for decades. Amidst all the caterwauling about the so-terrible noise of the gun club, it's interesting to note that the one time there was gunfire INSIDE the Mountain Cove development - when someone was murdered back in early November (see the 6th post in the "POSSIBLE DEATH ON WHISPERING WILLOW" thread and read the Tribune article that it contains) - nobody seemed to hear it. What does that tell you about all the complaints? |
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Post by Lisa on Jan 14, 2005 8:43:47 GMT -8
It tells me that they should practice their guns in an indoor facility. Not to get off the topic, I thought that you might find this interesting: I heard that the woman who is accused of commiting the murder practiced at the gun club that people are talking about. In addition, Sirhan Bishara Sirhan, the one who murdered Robert F. Kenedy, practiced at this gun club as well. crimemagazine.com/04/bobbykennedy,0527.htm "On the morning of June 4, 1968, Sirhan's name would be on the roster of the San Gabriel Valley Gun Club's as one of those using the shooting range that day." Who knows how many people practiced their guns at this club in order to kill people. |
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Post by Lisa on Jan 14, 2005 8:51:01 GMT -8
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Post by tekmann on Jan 14, 2005 10:26:27 GMT -8
Who knows how many people practiced their guns at this club in order to kill people. Like all those law enforcement officers? |
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Post by what a joke on Jan 14, 2005 16:51:03 GMT -8
Lisa
do yourself a favor. Stick to the issue, or start another subject under gun control! How many peoples lives have been saved because of the right to bear arms! Just because this idiot killed this woman does not mean that everyone who owns a gun is going to kill. And yes cops practice there too!!!!! You probably don't own a gun and that is your decision. If someone broke into my home in the middle of the night, I want a fair chance. I live in the Cove, and statistics show that a criminal is more likely to target a neighborhood like ours, not a less affluent one. But what people are arguing is noise not who shoots where, and what they did. This woman would have shot at a range 20 miles from here if it was the closest one around. You are preaching gun control not noise pollution!
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Post by Fed up on Jan 14, 2005 19:18:43 GMT -8
Why do the gun club advocates fail to see that the ones with the me,me,me attitude is them. We live here.. we are not just coming here for a few hours to practice our hobby, create noise and pollution for others than go home to their own cities which do not permit a few hobbiests to disturb the peace of it's residents. And why is it that no one notices the ATF violations they have committed?
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Neighbor of the murdered
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Post by Neighbor of the murdered on Jan 14, 2005 19:33:39 GMT -8
Amidst all the caterwauling about the so-terrible noise of the gun club, it's interesting to note that the one time there was gunfire INSIDE the Mountain Cove development - when someone was murdered back in early November (see the 6th post in the "POSSIBLE DEATH ON WHISPERING WILLOW" thread and read the Tribune article that it contains) - nobody seemed to hear it. What does that tell you about all the complaints?[/quote]
You are such an idiot, and shameful, despicable individual, who complains that everyone is me,me,me only becuase they don't agree with you. how dare you mention someones grief as support of your view. Did it ever occur to you maybe someone heard the shots and didnt even bother to call the police because they were accustomed to hearing gunshots. Did you also hear that the killer practiced at your precious club? Tekman why dont you pull your head out of your rear and show some some respect for the dead. I know you will read this but like all the others that have directed intelligent responses , you will ignore them. Oh and guess what all that rain and we are still here. I bet if what happen in La Conchita , happened in Mountain Cove you would happy. Oh maybe you should slim down a little, I know you know what i mean
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Post by UPDATE on Jan 18, 2005 14:34:47 GMT -8
There is going to be a meeting tonight at city hall at 7:30 P.M. The city council will be adopting the re-development plan including the gun club issue. Last chance to let them know how you feel! If you want to speak you must fill out a blue card. See you there!  |
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Post by AmericanSoldier05 on Jan 18, 2005 23:44:10 GMT -8
Lisa please tell me how you are going to blame a club because someone decides to murder someone else? Lee Harvey Oswald was a United States Marine before he became famous as a president killer. Does that mean we should disband the Marine Corps because sometimes people, years after their service, snap and kill someone? That is about as intelligent as blaming a gun manufacturer when some nut job uses a weapon made there in a robbery or murder. If we start using that kind of logic then I can blame my pencil whenever I make a mistake writing something doesn't it?
Bad people can be found any and everywhere regardless and trying to pin something so outrageous on a club, or a company or a product, shows me that there is an anti-gun bias driving this issue along with the ME ME ME factor. But this is not the point of this argument.
Some say this is noise pollution but then I can say that air traffic, cars, kids playing outside, birds etc. can be labeled as noise pollution if I decided I don't like it right? Should we ban birds and kids screaming when playing outside? Obviously not.
As for you Neighbor of the murdered, I'm sorry for your loss but you taking your anger out on another doesn't solve the issue nor does it make productive conversation. Just to ask what time of the day or night did the police trace this murder to? If it was during the evening then the gunclub can't be used as an excuse for not paying attention when a gun went off since it wouldn't be open. If it was during the day, the club still can't be held responsible since it wasn't involved. Either way, the murder is another topic for another thread. I just hope the lunacy of this whole issue stops and the First and Second Amendment are represented and upheld.
I knew I would take flak for this and I notice some on here have attacked me, others have supported me and still others have remained silent. I am still waiting for someone who is so against this club to tell me how they can justify taking away the rights of the club in order to "preserve" rights.
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Post by FEDUP on Jan 19, 2005 10:24:45 GMT -8
American Soldier,
You just don't get it do you? Your rights to enjoy your hobby do not out weigh my rights to enjoy my property, and peace. It's kind of like the smoking issue. Your right to smoke does not outweigh my right to breathe. And this issue has NOTHING to do with your right to bear arms. Please enjoy that right, just not where it constantly annoys everyone else. You are extending your right to shoot into the air which is publicly owned and not exclusively yours. Get it? Why don't you lobby the city council in your town to give a spot to move the gun club. Maybe a spot right behind your house so your family and you can enjoy the noise just about every day
of the year? ;D
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Post by MC Observer on Jan 19, 2005 16:44:13 GMT -8
FedUp, I think you have it right. Perhaps AmericanSoldier05 can begin to see the difference between a "pubic nuisance" (such as traffic and airports) and a private one (such as the gun club).
Another point: It's a fallacy to suggest that because the gun club was disclosed that cuts off our right to enjoy our land less than other property owners. As homeowners, Azusa residents are entitled to a "bundle of rights" to the land enjoyed by all other homeowners. Just because a nuisance is disclosed does not equate to acceptance of it without remedy. No homeowner, as far I can tell, signed anything that diminished their right to enjoy the land. Sorry the gun range has to go but some of us do not want to hear the rat-tat-tat of semi-automatic discharge. The legal instruments to remove the gun range are within our rights to exercise, and a remedy at our disposal. Society requires there be instruments for change if it is to prevent conflicts from becoming violent spasms. That is what society is: The confluence of divergent interests resolving conflicts through an established political process. Sorry but the gun range has to go. The majority of Azusans want it so.
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Post by FEDUP on Jan 19, 2005 18:32:45 GMT -8
MC Observer,
Thank You! I couldn't have said it better myself. Let's let our city council know we support them in their decision to support us, their constituents. ;D
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Post by AmericanSoldier05 on Jan 20, 2005 23:07:16 GMT -8
FedUp,
On the contrary, I don't believe you get it. The larger picture in this is gun rights believe me, but that is the macro situation, while the micro situation is this one gun club and one community. You say, "Your rights to enjoy your hobby do not out weigh my rights to enjoy my property, and peace." I'm not arguing for the hobby of shooting per say, I am arguing for the rights of the gun club, which has been enjoying it's property and peace for over 60 years. If you lived here before that you have a right to complain about "that noisy" gun club that moved in and destroyed your "peace".
I have 100% certainty that you were not here first though. You say you want to enjoy your rights but again you, and everyone else on here that is complaining about the gun club, has yet to explain to me, and everyone else, how taking away their property rights and their freedom ensures yours? You want to move a club that was here long before you, even though you knew about the club because of the disclosure of the "possible" noise before you moved here. Now suddenly you want to remove that which you do not have the right to remove.
What if the gunclub owner decided that the encrouching housing interfered with his rights and demanded that people living nearby leave their houses so as not to bother him? What if the local government agreed with the gun club? I'm sure this board would be full of screaming people decrying this violation of their rights and liberties. "Why should we have to move?" or "Why is it okay to violate our rights to live where we want because someone doesn't like that our houses are where they are?" You are doing the same thing to this gun club which has done nothing to you.
I wonder if many of those on here complaing ever even really noticed the noise before? I wonder if this isn't just some kind of pile-on because one person complained so others feel they need to jump in. This whole situation is a farce and even if I have to stand alone, in possibly a losing battle, I will because someone has to stand up for the rights of others.
You claim you only want your rights to peace and property and I respect you for that because you should have peace and property. However, you justify your rights by taking away the rights of others and that sir, makes you a hypocrite.
MC Observer, you are right everyone is entitled to "a bundle of rights" but once again you justify your rights by denying the rights of others. And please don't try to give us a sociology lesson on what society is because the rights of others are also suppossed to be protected in a society. What I find so funny about this is, is that no one seemed to mind for years and years and suddenly now it's a crisis.
Oh my God!!!! That horrible club where police officers train as do military personnel, along with everyday citizens, is the beginings of a new Nazi war machine that will come right through our homes eventually!!!!
Give me a break this isn't a crisis and never has been until one person decides to write a letter and then suddenly everyone comes out of the woodwork about this club acting like they were held hostage by it for so long and suddenly they have been liberated and want to punish their oppressors.
The gun club shouldn't have to go because it hasn't done anything wrong to anyone here. Name one law it has violated in the 60 years it has been there? Many here use "protecting rights" as a punchline and have no clue what it is to protect their own rights much less the rights of others. Because of my profession, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to defending the rights of others. Maybe this is why I am so ashamed to see people in my own country trampling the rights of someone else to justify "protecting rights". I stand with the gun club because it's rights are being trampled on.
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Post by it the law on Jan 21, 2005 8:40:45 GMT -8
I don't see any point in continuing to argue this. The case law supports the city. The city has a right to determine the future for the city. This one is pretty much a done deal. Now lets work on some other issues and turn this city into one that we can be proud of.
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Proud Mt Cove Resident
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Post by Proud Mt Cove Resident on Jan 21, 2005 8:52:15 GMT -8
The majority of Gun Club protesters don't want to talk about any other issues in Azusa, because they don't care about anything else in Azusa, besides the Gun Club. When it is CLOSED, (and it will be CLOSED), you will never see the majority of them in Azusa again, especially since we don't have a Wal-Mart
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Post by Fedup on Jan 21, 2005 14:06:22 GMT -8
American Soldier,
Are you kidding me? Didn't you read some of the previous postings where I specified which ATF laws they did break? Like selling arms without backgound checks or failing to register sales? These are just the tip of the iceberg. Noting them all would take to much time and room on this board. But besides that, using your logic would mean there would never be any progress of any kind. Everything that exists now displaced something else that was there before. Every freeway, shopping center, college and home development displaced something or someone. It's about progress and Azusa has the right, no, the responsibility to move forward just like every other city in this country does. By the way what happened with my idea of you asking your city to take in the gun club? ;D
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Post by AZUSA RESIDENT on Jan 21, 2005 19:39:12 GMT -8
American so called soldier, we own our land! gun club has a lease. Maybe in those 60 years they should have bought some land. You will never understand the reason the city council is rezoning the area, which will force the gun club to close. It is your narrow mindedness, that only see's things the way you want it. We could repond to all your reasons, and we have if you go back and read proir post. Like the who was here first issue, the disclosure issue, the law violated, etc. But it wont make diffferance, you are convinced that this some huge left wing movement to take away you precious guns which give you the strength your weak insecure soul needs. BOTTOM LINE: GUN CLUB PUBLIC NUSIANCE OUT WEIGHS ANY BENEFIT TO THE COMMUNITY END OF STORY!
Now quit youR crying soldier! suck it up and find an another place to play with your guns
The residents of Azusa want you OUT!
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Post by Thank You on Jan 25, 2005 12:40:07 GMT -8
American so called soldier, we own our land! gun club has a lease. Maybe in those 60 years they should have bought some land. You will never understand the reason the city council is rezoning the area, which will force the gun club to close. It is your narrow mindedness, that only see's things the way you want it. We could repond to all your reasons, and we have if you go back and read proir post. Like the who was here first issue, the disclosure issue, the law violated, etc. But it wont make diffferance, you are convinced that this some huge left wing movement to take away you precious guns which give you the strength your weak insecure soul needs. BOTTOM LINE: GUN CLUB PUBLIC NUSIANCE OUT WEIGHS ANY BENEFIT TO THE COMMUNITY END OF STORY! Now quit youR crying soldier! suck it up and find an another place to play with your guns The residents of Azusa want you OUT! It couldnt have been said any better! ;D |
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