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Post by FEDUP on Dec 18, 2004 14:00:34 GMT -8
Tekkman,
How do you know that there is no contamination? Have you spoken to the EPA? Maybe we should call them to find out when the last time they regulated the gun club was and what the results were. Also please remember that those of us who would like the gun club noise and pollution out are not necessarily against guns. I personally believe that we should continue to have this right. However, it's practice should not infringe on the rights of others to enjoy their property in peace in quiet.
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Post by tekmann on Dec 18, 2004 18:31:33 GMT -8
Tekkman, How do you know that there is no contamination? Have you spoken to the EPA? Maybe we should call them to find out when the last time they regulated the gun club was and what the results were. I asked where is the evidence of such contamination. And as for calling them to find out... well, if it's as bad as you seem to think it must be, you're already screwed because shooting has been going on in the area long before anyone got the idea to build homes in what is now Mountain Cove. |
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Post by FEDUP on Dec 20, 2004 12:07:26 GMT -8
Well, Let's find out shall we? it just takes asimple phone call! Also, prior contamination does not justify further contamination. Time to stop this damage to our land!
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Post by tekmann on Dec 21, 2004 8:41:43 GMT -8
Well, Let's find out shall we? it just takes asimple phone call! Also, prior contamination does not justify further contamination. Time to stop this damage to our land! Uh huh. What damage? And where was your concern for such alleged "damage" from the 58 year old gun club when you moved in? Are you saying that in your frenzy to buy, you not only ignored the sounds of the gun club but didn't bother to investigate any of the environmental issues - newly alleged pollution that somehow escaped the designers and builders, known history of fires and floods, etc - that exist? Tsk tsk. After Mother Nature either washes you out or burns you out, maybe the area will revert back to something appropriate for such terrain... like maybe a gun club...  These environmental concerns seem just a little bit phony and manufactured considering how suddenly you've come up with them. |
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Post by SNIVELING DORK MCR on Dec 21, 2004 9:30:30 GMT -8
"After Mother Nature either washes you out or burns you out, maybe the area will revert back to something appropriate for such terrain... like maybe a gun club..."
TEKMANN,
I guess when you are out of arguements and realize the battle is almost lost. You must resort to wishing mother nature will bail you out. Well wake up and smell the coffee. Have you ever heard dont mess with mother nature? And becareful what you wish for you might get it. Your childish threats are joke. Sorry Yosemite Sam.
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Post by FEDUP on Dec 21, 2004 12:31:59 GMT -8
Tekkman,
When we moved in we didn't know about the damage the gun club has been doing to the enviroment. And the noise was always bothersome so when the city decided they were going to re-develop the whole city it finally gave us an opportunity to express our great displasure about it. Our city needs to listen to it's residents not bullies who come to our town and think they can have their way in our city-home. Now we will see to it that it's stopped. You have no arguments! If you didn't learn to respect other people's rights in school it's time to learn now! When a bully pushes you, you have to push back twice as hard, so get ready to fall! ;D
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Post by QUESTION FOR FEDUP on Dec 21, 2004 13:30:04 GMT -8
Why did you buy a house in Mountain Cove if you knew the gun club was already there?
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Post by tekmann on Dec 21, 2004 14:10:32 GMT -8
Tekkman, When we moved in we didn't know about the damage the gun club has been doing to the enviroment. And the noise was always bothersome so when the city decided they were going to re-develop the whole city it finally gave us an opportunity to express our great displasure about it. Our city needs to listen to it's residents not bullies who come to our town and think they can have their way in our city-home. Now we will see to it that it's stopped. You have no arguments! If you didn't learn to respect other people's rights in school it's time to learn now! When a bully pushes you, you have to push back twice as hard, so get ready to fall! ;D You "didn't know about the damage the gun club has been doing to the enviroment" and you still don't. You're offering conjecture that supports your agenda yet flies in the face of the studies that were done before the land was transformed into homesites. Where is all this pollution? Why is there none downstream? The only bullies on the scene are the self-centered new residents of Mountain Cove who insist that now that they're here, the rest of the world must recongnize them as being superior beings with rights that overrule the rights of others. BTW, just for the record, I've never been on the premises of the gun club. |
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Post by tekmann on Dec 21, 2004 14:14:26 GMT -8
"After Mother Nature either washes you out or burns you out, maybe the area will revert back to something appropriate for such terrain... like maybe a gun club..." TEKMANN, I guess when you are out of arguements and realize the battle is almost lost. You must resort to wishing mother nature will bail you out. Well wake up and smell the coffee. Have you ever heard dont mess with mother nature? And becareful what you wish for you might get it. Your childish threats are joke. Sorry Yosemite Sam. Try to read what's written in front of you instead of allowing your emotions to read meaning into it that wasn't put there. Nobody is "wishing" you ill and nobody is making threats, childish or otherwise. You've purchased a home in an area that's historically known for floods and fires and you're imagining that no such thing could possibly ever happen again simply because now *you're* there. |
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Im not Fedup but let me
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Post by Im not Fedup but let me on Dec 21, 2004 14:21:20 GMT -8
Let me give you an example:
I'm a real estate agent who recently helped a client sell a house in Van Nuys. There was a neighbor across the street who had developed a "collection" problem that started several years back, but had recently become over-the-top. The neighbor was stacking storage containers - done rather neatly, actually - in front and on the side of the garage. Still, it was odd and had an effect on the quality of life, in that it creates the sort of visual environment that might attract further problems. (as say, graffiti attracts gangs, etc.)
The buyer loved the house and the neighborhood overall. Though concerned about the neighbor, he still proceded with the purchase - because he felt that something could be done to improve the situation.
I facilitated the buyer's getting in touch with the City of Los Angeles, who found that relatively recent ordinances rendered the neighbor's situation as a non-conforming use, and in violation of municipal code. In other words, this neighbor could have been stacking storage crates for more than a decade, and it may have been okay before. But not anymore, as ordinances had been modified to improve the quality of life in the city.
The city issued a warning to the neighbor - and after a little work with the individual, the crates and storage containers that were stacking up around the property were moved to a remote storage facility. The neighbor was really ticked off that her things had to be located elsewhere, but she seems to be getting over it - and the rest of the homes on this street are grateful that their new neighbor took the initiative to make everyone's quality of life there better.
Hope that sheds some light....
Best to you all at MC (and please pardon my intruding again),
Rome
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Post by Oops on Dec 21, 2004 14:22:45 GMT -8
By the way, the above post was in response to the "Question for Fedup" post.
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Post by hugger on Dec 21, 2004 17:19:33 GMT -8
rights of others to enjoy their property in peace in quiet. There is no such rights. If you move there with the knowledge that the gun club is there, then you can move out. I don't think those gun owners are holding their guns to your head and make you stay there. |
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RE nosubstance comments
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Post by RE nosubstance comments on Dec 21, 2004 18:02:20 GMT -8
There is no such rights. . Just for the sake of disproving your statement, don't you think a noise ordinance (just one of many examples) would afford residents such a right? Almost every city has one of those... So tell us again about how there are "no rights" to peace and quiet. - ? While you're figuring that out, why don't you go back up a couple of posts and read again how a city ordinance process can work to give everyone the right to a better quality of life in their neighborhoods. I love how you all just post these things right off the top of your heads without any thought put behind them. I actually think it's great that you guys can't restrain yourselves. Because between these brainless arguments and the insults you keep hurling at Azusa (your numerous wild eyed letters to the Tribune), you're doing a lot of damage to your own image - not to mention killing your own chances at having any community support to stay open. "I know, let's all write letters and make comments at council meetings, insulting Azusa... THEN we'll get to stay open!" Yeah, really great strategy you guys have there.... |
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Post by FEDUP on Dec 21, 2004 19:07:07 GMT -8
Rome,
Again Thanks for your intelligent comments! As far as why we bought in Mountain Cove... we loved everything else (except the gun club) about the house and figured that eventually the city would have to do something about an out-dated use in an area that had increasingly grown in population and complaints from prior residents. Also the city had begun a re-development process in the late 1990's and it seemed like only a matter of time. As you know none of Azusa's neighbors allow such a use in their city. As far as the right to enjoy reasonable peace and quiet... If you have anoise isssue witha neighbor( dogs, loud music, fighting, etc.) you can call the police and there are certain ordinances the will apply. With the gun club, we can't do the same. We have this noise from the gun club 24/7 and we can't call anyone to give us relief. Also remember thet the air into which second-hand noise is emitted and on which it travels is a "commons"a public good. People, businesses, and organizations, therefore, do not have unlimited rights to broadcast noise as they please, as if the effects of noise were limited only to their private property. On the contrary, they have an obligation to use the commons in ways that are compatible with or do not detract from other uses. By the way non of us think we are better than any one else. But we also deserve the same rights, respect and consideration as anyone else. how would you like me to take my dog to do his business on you yard every day because he likes your yard better and I lived there before you did? And what if I blasted my music every day for the same reason? You do not have the rights to disturb a whole neighborhood's peace.
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Post by RESIDENT OF AZUSA on Dec 21, 2004 20:33:03 GMT -8
Members of the gun club,
It is clear that you are frustrated by the city making a change in the zoning. Which will make the club move. Just as back in 1947 when your founding fathers moved to the remote area, why dont you now move to another remote area! You do not have the right to continue now that the area is no longer remote. And any agruement against the people who have made the area no longer remote is ridculous! Be a man and suck it up and move! You remote area is the now the gateway to the canyon. Besides from what I saw at the Council meeting you are not the youngest bunch I ever seen. Palm springs is pretty remote. Beside just as you seem to feel a lawsuit will save you! Prepare yourself for class action lawsuit, you guys are a prime target ( get it , target)
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Post by Sniveling dork mcr on Dec 21, 2004 21:28:11 GMT -8
Try to read what's written in front of you instead of allowing your emotions to read meaning into it that wasn't put there. Nobody is "wishing" you ill and nobody is making threats, childish or otherwise. You've purchased a home in an area that's historically known for floods and fires and you're imagining that no such thing could possibly ever happen again simply because now *you're* there. Oh Im sorry how could I have confused that with a childish threat? Well then I guess then I could say hope the earth opens up and swallows your house Merry Christmas. Why did you move near fault line? Dont let your emotions speak for you. it is just clear that you Have no arguement ! when you avoid the issue |
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Post by hugger on Dec 21, 2004 21:32:11 GMT -8
You don't move into an area that has been known to be noisy and then whine about it like a baby. Be the man and suck it up. They have ear plugs for a reason.
Also, having a "noise ordinance" still does not give you a right. If you think about what a right is, then maybe you would understand. Maybe you are so confused about what rights are since you are so busy trying to take away other people's rights.
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Post by Silver Springer on Dec 21, 2004 21:51:05 GMT -8
having a "noise ordinance" still does not give you a right. If you think about what a right is, then maybe you would understand. Maybe you are so confused about what rights are since you are so busy trying to take away other people's rights. We're not confused... you're just unclear and so narrow in your own ideology, that you speak in language most people in the real world aren't going to get..... By "right," you are referring to a right on the Bill of Rights - as in the Right to Bear Arms. You're speaking in NRA-only language. Most of us just use regular English and exist outside the NRA bubble.... and sorry to tell you, but just because something isn't specifically designated as guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, does not mean that such a right doesn't exist. And they make city ordinances (and zoning and rezoning) to further codify some's rights and others' limitations. Just like the other post said before about the packrat lady... The city codes got more strict while she lived there and sort of moved past her. As her neighbor's changed, someone wanted those laws enforced to make a better community. That's basically what's happening with the gun club. |
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Post by mtncovelover4 on Dec 21, 2004 23:00:43 GMT -8
HEY TEKMANN, I WASNT EVEN TALKING TO YOU WHEN I SAID THAT, SO KEEP YOUR IDIOTIC, ANNOYING, COMMUNIST MOUTH SHUT! DOUCHEBAG!  I used to get banned for saying stuff like this Is it OK now? If it is, then I will post again? ;D ;D  |
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Post by mtncovelover4 on Dec 21, 2004 23:05:08 GMT -8
RE nosubstance comments , WTF! Who in the hell are you jabbering to? You use words indicating you are talking to more than one person, but yet you are replying to a specific post, I think Are there several folks out to get you what?  |
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Why do you care so much
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Post by Why do you care so much on Dec 22, 2004 0:03:41 GMT -8
RE nosubstance comments , WTF! Who in the hell are you jabbering to? You use words indicating you are talking to more than one person, but yet you are replying to a specific post, I think Are there several folks out to get you what? Gee, Mtncovelover4, you must not read things very carefully. I went back and checked what you're talking about. I can't figure out why you would have a problem with anything. Are you really just generally looking to create friction or be offensive? In case you're being sincere, however, I'll explain it to you gently. The first couple of paragraphs of the post you're referring to are in response to a specific poster named Hugger. The rest was clearly a general response to the countless ramblings of the Gun Club brigade. I'm surprised you weren't able to easily read that. I'm also confused as to why the post bothered you so much. I suppose if you were in favor of the gun club, it would be obvious why. But you seem to be complaining only because the post was directed at more than one person (is that offensive or something?)...... and you were so adamant that you event went as far as to imply, for no sensible reason, that the poster was paranoid. Your own posts, as are your choices of who you respond to and why you respond to them, are peculiar to say the least. So I wouldn't throw stones in that river. |
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Post by tekmann on Dec 22, 2004 6:14:42 GMT -8
Oh Im sorry how could I have confused that with a childish threat? Well then I guess then I could say hope the earth opens up and swallows your house Merry Christmas. Why did you move near fault line? Dont let your emotions speak for you. it is just clear that you Have no arguement ! when you avoid the issue This is easily the most hilarious post I've read here yet, as it consists entirely of what's often referred to on the Internet as an IKYABWAI, which means "I know you are, but what am I?", a phrase made famous by PeeWee Herman. Your question of "how could I have confused that with a childish threat?" has an obvious answer, albeit one which you would doubtless find offensive. You may certainly hope that the earth opens up and swallows my house if you wish, but you will not find it written that I hope for a similar catastrophe for you; I've merely mentioned that floods and fires have affected your area before and there's no reason to think that they won't again. You advise me not to let my emotions speak for me while basing your entire argument upon your own emotions. Why did I move near the fault line? Well, that pretty much covers most of southern California and if my house is destroyed in an earthquake, so be it. Now that I've responded in a civil manner to both your questions and your tantrums, what "issues" am I supposed to be avoiding? |
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Post by tekmann on Dec 22, 2004 6:27:21 GMT -8
We're not confused... you're just unclear and so narrow in your own ideology, that you speak in language most people in the real world aren't going to get..... By "right," you are referring to a right on the Bill of Rights - as in the Right to Bear Arms. You're speaking in NRA-only language. Most of us just use regular English and exist outside the NRA bubble.... and sorry to tell you, but just because something isn't specifically designated as guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, does not mean that such a right doesn't exist. You offer a very limited view of the term "rights" and then attribute that definition to the person you're responding to. Do you have any argument to present that doesn't involve having to put words in the mouths of others in order to support your agenda? Just curious. |
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RE Gun Clubbers Brain Freeze
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Post by RE Gun Clubbers Brain Freeze on Dec 22, 2004 10:03:32 GMT -8
You offer a very limited view of the term "rights" and then attribute that definition to the person you're responding to. Do you have any argument to present that doesn't involve having to put words in the mouths of others in order to support your agenda? . Tekmann, it was the other poster, "Hugger" - in support of the Gun Cub - that had the limited definition of the term "rights." He was baiting people to figure out what he's talking about, without actually elaborating on it himself... So any response to that effect would have, as you describe it, "put words in his mouth." What's even more ironic is that Silver Springer's post even pointed out that "Hugger" was limiting the meaning of the word "rights." So where do you get off attributing things to Silver Springer that your boy, Hugger, actually did? I guess we're moving off the track a bit... But it does go to show that you'll say or do anything, even if it doesn't make sense, in the name of supporting the gun club. |
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Post by To Azusa Resident on Dec 22, 2004 10:40:28 GMT -8
What's an "agruement"?
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Post by FEDUP on Dec 22, 2004 11:28:27 GMT -8
Gun Club- pack your bags. Time to suck it up and move. your days are numbered! Azusa isn't going to put with you any longer!
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Post by Air Dog on Dec 22, 2004 12:26:35 GMT -8
To my mentally challenged pal. An argument is a discussion in which disagreement is expressed;a debate;a quarrel; or a dispute. See Pal it's easy, just check the dictionary! |
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Gunners not using brains again
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Post by Gunners not using brains again on Dec 22, 2004 12:28:46 GMT -8
It's called a typo. I guess if you can't use substance to back yourselves up, you'll just go after people's typing skills.... |
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Post by Gurst on Dec 22, 2004 13:25:33 GMT -8
Wow... this section board has really deteriorated and become infantile.
I feel sorry in a way that the gun club must move. I understand their plight. But they have done as little as possible to abate the noise problem (which is the most pressing issue) in all the years they have been there. Those "trees" they planet? They are still in their containers, according to several reports.
The pollution argument is tenuous. It is likely that the gun club property itself is highly polluted, but unlikely that it has spread to the river basin. However, someone keeps eluding to the idea that if the pollution existed, Mountain Cove would not be built. That is simply ludicrous, because the actual polluted site is about 1.25 miles downstream. The environmental argument came to light only after people began to investigate the gun club's activities. Does that seem so odd? We also discovered alleged illegal gun sales and tax evasion activities. So don't be surprised when those offenses come to light. Vulcan Materials should have revoked your charter years ago, and they may be in trouble because they didn't. Even the Mayor alluded to these activities in the last meeting.
The vast majority of Mountain Cove owners knew there was a gun club. I visited the site of Mountain Cove for over a year BEFORE the construction, and gun club noise sounded much like construction noise in the distance. It was a minor annoyance at most, and the beauty and grandeur of Mountain Cove outweighs the noise pollution. However, in recent years, perhaps as a result from 9/11, the noise has risen SUBSTANTIALLY.
Also, the city has been planning changes for numerous years BEFORE Mountain Cove existed, including significant improvements to local fire controls and the flood plain. This is NOT a Mountain Cove issue. However, we DID indeed take initiative to relieve ourselves of the gun club when an opportunity presented itself. A number of our friends and neighbors may disagree, but the majority seems to feel that it is a positive move to a better Azusa, including residents from Mirador, The Citrus Collection and Duarte. I don't know of any of my friends who think guns or the right to bear them should be reduced or taken away. That is a non-issue.
The gun club has had many years to do something to reduce noise and has done virtually nothing. Now that they are threatened, they decide that they are willing to work with us. Of course, they are also the first to threaten a lawsuit. Such good neighbors. And at the city council meeting when the gun club representatives spoke, not only were we respectful, but we even applauded one of their members who had some good points to make. But when our speakers went to the dais, they sneered and booed to the point where the Mayor had to slam down her gavel and remind them that we are in a democracy. Good for her! Isn't it ironic that those who would put up such a fight to defend the so-called attack on their second amendment rights would be the first ones to deny our first amendment rights to freedom of speech?
That pretty much covers our arguments. Now let's get to yours. "We were here before you!" Well, that's a non-argument. Even if it could hold water, Azusa was here before the gun club and the citizens therein, both long-time residents and new residents, have a right to direct the city's destiny that far outweighs the wishes of non-residents. The City Council doesn't need to be bribed or cajoled to know they have a responsibility to their constituents. Maybe that's how they work in your city but not ours.
"To be anti-gun club is to be anti-gun!" I know more people in Mountain Cove who own guns than I have ever known, and many support the idea of the gun club leaving. I personally don't really enjoy shooting enough to own a gun, but I have used them. I have no problem with people owning and using them responsibly. I just don't choose to.
"You knew the gun club was there!" Well, that's true. But as I've mentioned above, the noise has gotten much worse, and I did not know about the possible fire risk or environmental pollution. This argument is akin to saying that you shouldn't complain about potholes in the town you moved into because you knew they were there. It's nonsense. Also, understand that the paper we signed acknowledging the gun club is not a legally-binging contract to put up with it. It was a simple disclosure form required by Standard Pacific to cover their butts in case anyone complained. I moved into Azusa with the expectation that the city was growing and changing, and we were informed that the gun club would most likely be gone in a few years because the city was re-zoning all over, including downtown and the Monrovia Nursery Project. Please don’t compare the gun club to an Airport. Get real.
I have tried to express my point of view in a civil manner, so please respond in a similar fashion. I honestly wish it hadn't come to this. I was one of the first to suggest that the city and gun club raise funds to move the gun club indoors. Later I was informed that it was not feasible for a number of reasons. That is unfortunate. But as time went on, as I saw how little the gun club has done in the past, as they have told us to suck it up or move, as they have insulted us and called us communist or un-American, as they booed and snickered at us in the hollowed city council chambers where true democracy makes root, as they have lied and threatened law suits, I am glad to see them go. They are not good neighbors. They are mostly outsiders who have bullied Azusa into submission for many years. Not any more.
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Post by Shameful on Dec 22, 2004 13:31:37 GMT -8
I was at the city council meeting too. It was shameful how they laughed when their PR guy mentioned the murder of that poor lady that happened here in Mountain Cove. They actually giggled because he said "Nobody was able to hear the shots fired right next door" and went on to mention the double-paned windows and so on. Well DUH...
It was night and people had their windows closed and their TVs on. You usually can't here the gun club in such conditions. However, in the front of my house, you can't hear the club but you CAN even with the windows closed in the back. It's really very minor though.
What he seemed to miss what that we want to enjoy the OUTDOORS. Yeah sure, if we lock ourselves in our homes, then the noise isn't bad, but we have a RIGHT to enjoy all of our property, day and night, inside and out. I think he made an ass of himself when he brought up the murder. Oh, and guess where the killer learned to shoot? THE AZUSA GUN CLUB! This is according to her own testimony, witnesses, police reports and the newpaper. Smooth move!
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