Gun Club

[31 Rock Springs]

I am annoyed at the residents of mountain cove who are systematically trying to shut down the gun club and sending letters to the mayor suggesting that all "neighbors" of mountain cove agree. I own a business, and SGV gun club is my client. I cannot speak to their tax dealings, but I can speak to their right to maintain their location. The letters suggest that the noise of the club is equal to that of living in a "war zone." This is ridiculous and I suggest that the author visit Afghanistan before making such ludicrous analogies. We all signed an agreement of the awareness of the gun club location. Let the club exist, try to live harmoniously with pre-existing businesses in this community, and quit your complaining.

Sincerely,
Kelly Ribeiro (not afraid to print my name unlike the author behind the "Stop the Gun club" letters)

[Margaret Blackwell]

Good for you, Kelly! We agree. We are one of the homes closer to the gun club and I don't even think about it anymore. Hardly a war zone. We knew when we moved here. I think re-zoning is kind of sneaky. It doesn't sit well with us to sign an acknowledgement of the gun club's presence then turn around and try to get it out.

Margaret

[turningleaf]

I guess noise affects some people more than others. Some people are used to lots of noise while others live quieter lives.

I think that if Azusa is going to improve, it must make some controversial decisions. Look at Monrovia, a town that used to have similar a image problem, just as Azusa currently has. In order to change the image, Monrovia had to make some controversial changes, some of which included tearing down houses. We are not talking about tearing down houses in Azusa. We are talking about moving the people who practice guns from one place to another, which will be of benefit to the majority of people that live in the area. Yes, a little controversial but not the end of the World. And over the long term, it benefits the current and future citizens of Azusa. People will look back at it as a good change.

Hopefully, it will also help push up our property values. If my home was in Glendora, South Hills, or Monrovia (built around the same time for approximately the same price), I could get $1.1-1.2 million. The price difference between the cities is ridiculous. It is time for Azusa to change....she should not have to wait any longer.

[Jen]

I did a little search and found a web site that discusses similar issues. I hope that this link works. It's my first post.
www.nonoise.org/

[Island Dweller]

If they were my client I would want to keep them also . But they are not putting money in my wallet, they are reducing my property values. Therefore I salute the effort to try to limit their lease. They are a club so go have a club somewhere else. Also I am gun supporter

[31 Rock Springs]

Actually, the Gun Club will be my client whether or not they move from Azusa. If the residents here were concerned about their property values raising at the rate of Monrovia or Glendora homes, it may have been wise to purchase in one of those cities. It's not as if the gun club just moved in; we all knew it was there before we bought our homes. I am overjoyed to see that our neighbors are practicing community involvement (even if we don't always agree!!) I wish, however, that we could all turn our focus to more constructive matters, like luring businesses into Azusa, not pushing them out. Creating better schools and producing an environment that is "business friendly" is the most effective way to make this a coveted place to live.
Kelly

[Whispering Willow]

Most of the people I have spoken with are not happy about the noise pollution the gun club generates and they have every right to speak up about it. Even if they knew about it they didn't sign their right to free speech away, we are in the U.S.A aren't we? As far as visiting Afghanistan I don't need to do that, I just go outside to my patio on Sunday Mornings and I get the idea. Also, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want the club to go away if it is your client but what are the rest of us getting out of it? Would you like to share your profits with the rest of us maybe? It is a club right? I think the rights of residents should be considered over someone's hobby. After all, if it was a club for the Hell's Angels motorcycle gang we would expect the city to do something wouldn't we? The city now has an opportunity to do something that may not ome up again and that none of us expected to have. Let them take everyone's opinion into consideration when they decide this not just the Club's. Homeowners have more at stake here than the club members who come to enjoy themselves by imposing on our peace then go home to their own peaceful neighborhood. Do they live within earshot? I doubt it.
I have nothing against guns or businesses, I own both. However, someone's right to practice their hobby should not infringe upon the majority of people who do not wish to forcefully be part of it. But who knows maybe everyone should be forced to be part of my hobbie, square dancing anyone? Just kidding! If you have an opinion let the city council know it and let them make the decision based on what is best for the city. That is their job and I trust them to do a good job for the city we now all call home.
comments

[31 Rock Springs]

I PROMISE THIS IS MY LAST ONE. . .

As I said before, the Gun club will remain my client even if they have to change locations; and I do share my profits with all members of the neighborhood as I pay my association dues and volunteer (time and money) for our city as much as I can. I respect your right to speak up, as long as you speak for yourself and not the "neighbors" of mountain cove. We don't all agree with you. As far as the analogies to our beautiful home and neighborhood to a war zone, I am really surprised to hear anyone defend that. Believe me, I have family in Iraq right now, and it doesn't compare to your patio on a Sunday morning. What a disgrace to suggest such a thing! Seriously folks, speak up as much as you can, defending all sides of the issue - I support that - but make sure when you send your letters, you don't speak for me. Have the courage to sign your names, because the "neighbors of Mountain Cove" do not have a collective opinion. We are made up of all sorts and it is a dreadful feeling for me to be lumped in with the people who compare our Sunday Barbecues to Fallujah. Unfortunately for you, those comparisons demean your credibility. As I said before, I am excited to see people fired up about our community. I do not mind the heartfelt disagreements - it sure beats apathy!! My family and my neighborhood friends, however, do not all agree with your points of view. When letters get written to the mayor and to the city, they should reflect accuracies. To suggest that the "neighbors of Mountain Cove agree" on this issue, would be a falsehood. So, go ahead speak up - just not for me.

Thanks for listening to my point of view. I assure you that I welcome yours. I can also ease your mind from experience that our patios on a Sunday morning hardly compare to some of the tragedies and violence happening throughout the world.

This is a great neighborhood - you can speak up and someone is there to listen!!

Kelly Ribeiro

[ABCS]

I too have family overseas - a nephew. The comparison to the gun noise to a war zone is immature and, frankly, uninformed. Consider yourself lucky if this is the closest to a war zone you've been to. I'm not crazy about guns, but I don't like people speaking for me either. It doesn't seem like a ridiculous request to get actual signatures when sending letters. It's just not honest to insinuate that everyone feels the same way.

[misunderstanding]

People are getting upset over a misunderstanding. The original letter was written by a resident, not myself, that wrote a letter to the city council. It was not a letter written to represent everyone in Mountain Cove. The writer thought that it would be easier for people to write a letter if they read a couple of other letters that had already been sent.

I'm sure that the city council already knows that the people that live in Mountain Cove really cannot agree upon anything. Many of the council members have visited this board and they have seen how many of us are ready to snap out a nasty comment at any opportunity. Out of all of the discussions that I have seen on this board, I have not seen one that solved a problem without someone flying off the handle.

[Bored of Complaints]

There are many disagreements in the "Rant and Raves" on this Gun Club issue, but no one has flown off the handle. The fact is, some people think we live in a nice neighborhood; others think we live in a war zone. As far as anyone "snapping out nasty comments," the nastiest comment I've read is that the neighbors here "cannot agree on anything," and that no problem has been solved without someone "fly[ing] off the handle."

[Margaret Blackwell]

Kelli profits from the gun club
We don't, so...
She should share her profits

The gun club leaves
We profit when we sell our houses

So.... who do we have to share with?

[Peace Lover]

The gun club is a recreational activity for some people who probably would not enjoy having this noise going on all day at their back yard. I'm sure they would not like to hear someone else's music piped into their back yard all day long. I doubt they would enjoy living around their own recreation area. Also did anyone see the posting on the lead danger this use creates for all of us? The one about noise pollution also makes some good points about respecting the commons( what we all share and have in common like the air, water ways, etc.) I don't think anyone would have a problem if they enclosed it like they did in Pasadena. This would solve everyone's problem.

[confused]

O.K-- I'm trying to understand this thing...Exactly why would I want the Gun club to stay? I'm trying to do pros and cons but I can't come up with one pro. I think if I had a choice and someone asked me would you rather hear the gun shots or not I would definitely say I would prefer not to hear them. If someone asked me would you rather have to disclose this club if I where to sell my property or not , again I would have to admit I would rather not. I understand that membership in this club is closed to new membership so I couldn't join even if I wanted to and there are very few active members
(140). I'm pretty sure it does nothing positive for the enviroment and might actually harm it, or even make a dent in the Azusa economy. So....
why is anyone fighting in favor of it if we have an unexpected opportunity to make a positve change?

[dubh]

-because some of us have a problem signing an agreement acknowledging the gun club's right to exist where it's been for some time and then, after moving in, trying to remove it
-because it ain't all about me
-because I believe in the Golden Rule(would I want someone to bump me out of where I've been for 20 years--would you?)

I do not own a gun and I've never been to the gun club
I don't think my interest in increasing my property value trumps the gun club's right to stay where it is. Honoring my word is more important.

[Sagebrush resident]

That is not what we signed. We did not sign anything that says that the gun club had a right to exist. What we signed is a notice stating that there may be noise from the gun club. We had to sign it to limit Standard Pacifics liability. It is called a disclosure. The builder was just disclosing that there could be noise from the gun club. No homeowner signed away their rights.

[dubh]

Rights?
I didn't know I had a right to push out what I don't like.

Why don't we push the Azusa residents whose homes look like crap and have cars on blocks in front yard to clean up their act because they're driving down our home values?

[MtnCove03]

Has anyone seen the posting on lead pollution from gun clubs? there is an excerpt below. Take a wild guess as to how many pounds of lead pollutants have POURED into the san gabriel river and seeped into the ground in the last week during the rains? I've heard the gun club does not have a lead abatement program. If they do, and have paid the $$$ to keep that program current with government standards - why are they not publicizing this information as people have requested?

Studies show outdoor gun ranges easily produce enough lead waste per year to be classified as a super-fund site.

And yes, we do have EVERY right to ask that a club implement reasonable sound mitigation measures or get out. the noise they generate as a single, private entity is over and beyond. they absolutely have a right to be there, but not to generate the level of noise pollution that they do. the fact that they were here first does not mean they can ignore the fact that los angeles community has grown and spread out in the last 50 years. this is not a new issue to Azusans Mtn Cove residents. it's called change - get used to it, because it's the one thing that is not going away in your life.

And to whomever is blowing the whole "war zone" comment out of proportion - please, just stop. you sound silly. someone made an ANALOGY - that's it. not a literal comparison to iraq. of course - you've probably NEVER used an analogy before...


WASHINGTON, DC-The Violence Policy Center (VPC) and the Environmental Working Group (EWG) today released Poisonous Pastime: The Health Risks of Shooting Ranges and Lead to Children, Families, and the Environment. The 71-page study documents how shooting ranges are poisoning children and polluting the environment with lead, yet remain almost entirely unregulated-exempt from even the Bush Administration's new lead pollution reporting rules.

Poisonous Pastime documents the risk shooting ranges pose to other third parties, like range employees, construction workers on range facilities, and those who share buildings with ranges, live, or work near ranges:

A day-care center in Clearwater, Florida, was forced to close and the children were required to have blood tests after it was discovered that a neighboring indoor shooting range was venting lead-contaminated air
into the center’s playground area....California health officials have seen “some serious lead poisoning cases among construction employees engaged in demolition of a firing range, as well as among these employees’ children.” (p. 15)

[COVE HOME OWNER]

Clear and simple. The city is possibly going to re-zone the area where the gun club is. If the community does not want a gun club it has the right to vocalize it in any manner signed, unsigned, comparision with anything they want. Guess what, the reason we live where we live was because the area was re-zone to allow homes. If the area can no longer support a zoning for a gun club it should be moved , just ask the horses that used to live in the Mountain Cove area. Some homeowner feel they can live with the noise, some feel it should be reduced. I want to hear an argument why, if the city decides to re-zone it, and the gun club must move, how would that hurt the community?

[confused]

Why is anyone against improving your own quality of life?
Why should anyone have the right to run a business or a club without caring about the rights of others in their community. Polluting our enviroment or forcing their noise onto everyone else for their personal gain is not following the "Golden Rule" ? There is a point at which the common good takes precedence over the rights of a few. If you ask me the rights of a few club members should not outweigh the rights of everyone else around them, and that means the other homes around them as well as Mountain Cove.

[MC resident]

Saturday afternoon 10-9-04, I received in my house a package for homowners, about the gun club, and the 31 Rock Spring owner and someone else, are surprised because of most all of us thinking about the gun club. You (31 Rock spring owner) said that you have bussiness with them, and you care only yor own bussiness, you and someone else care nothing about the noise pollution, the environmental impact to the river, the danger of having an open air shooting range within a 1/2 mile of hundreds upon hundreds of houses, and hearing everyday bang, bang, bang, bang, and you guys don't like to hear some residents say that is like a war area. I am so sorry for you guys, but it is true, and I agree with them because this area is a war one, and almost we all do care about all this, because we want to live peacefully in the mountains and we don't want the dangerous noise pollution. Wo here thinks it's possible to live peacefully with about 40 guns blazing all day ? what happen is that we want a better quality of life and this is impossible with an archaic gun range established years ago, and we are sorry but you and someone else like you and the San Gabriel gun club members can whine and complain about us, all you or they want, the concerned of most Azusa residents are not going to stop until we get them out!!!

[Bored of Complaints]

This is in response to MtnCove03. You must re-read the replies to this issue, because, yes someone actually did defend and compare their patio to a literal war zone.
I'll quote Whispering Willow, "As far as visiting Afghanistan I don't need to do that, I just go outside to my patio on Sunday Mornings and I get the idea." You are right, it is an analogy, however, a poor one. I credit the few who exposed the ridiculousness of it. When making analogies, one should look for an overwhelming connection to the two which are being compared. The connection made in this particularlar analogy is immature and weak at best.

One thing I wish everyone could keep in mind is this: The city of Azusa should benefit from having all of us move in here. The fact is that pre-existing Azusa businesses, establishments, and residents were not necessarily thrilled to welcome new building and residents here. Many feel the same way about the current plan for the Monrovia Nursery Project. People are afraid when the new people move in, they push the old out. Now, I'm not afraid of change as MtnCove03 suggests but I understand that the spine of a community is its small business. Consequently, as a new resident, I intend to work with and stand by the long-standing businesses and participators of Azusa. This is possible and necessary to gain support in really refurbishing this neighborhood.

Also, I'd like to say: I maintain my point of view with the expectation that you have your view separate from mine. In stating my feelings, I am not suggesting that those who disagree should not speak up or take action. It is unproductive to take disagreements personally.

[Sagebrush resident]

Yes, there are some people in this city that are affraid of change. No one is trying to push out people. If the gun range owners would like to open an indoor facility or open another type of business which does not harm the reputation of the city, then I'm sure that the city would welcome that.

I don't believe in protecting things that decrease the quality of life in the city and could possibly endanger the health of its citizens. It does not matter if it was here for 100 years. There used to be a red light district in downtown Azusa. I'm glad that the city was able to remove it. And I don't hear anyone saying that they wish that we still had a red light district.

[Bored of Complaints]

A red light district - now, that's an idea. Let's get a commitee going. . .

[MtnCove03]

Hi "Bored of Complaints",

Just a couple of comments (sans the "war zone" thread). You mentioned, "One thing I wish everyone could keep in mind is this: The city of Azusa should benefit from having all of us move in here." I agree that would be the best-case scenario and it's what I'm hoping for.

Also, please keep in mind, some of us, myself included, have lived or worked in Azusa, for a while. For me, it's been since 1988. That's 16 years. To say that those, "pre-existing Azusa businesses, establishments, and residents were not necessarily thrilled to welcome new building and residents here" is a broad generalization and isn't exactly true. Most residents are welcoming recent changes. In fact, many of the "long-timers" which I exclue myself from, are downright embracing change. The Mirador community, just down the road from Mountain Cove has sent several letters in the past few weeks to City Council as well. Those homes have been here at least 10, if not 15 years. I think most are on board that something has to be done about the gun club and like to see new development in Azusa - at least that's my perception of that neighborhood from talking to people who live there.

Also, you mentioned, "Many feel the same way about the current plan for the Monrovia Nursery Project" how could that be true when both Measures A & B proposing the Specific Plan passed overwhelmingly with 75% citywide approval?

It seems some are subtly asking people to not voice their opinions on this or other issues. My stance is to proceed strategically, voice our opinions and let the City and Vulcan Materials solve this problem (essentially do their job and listen to the people's will).

[Bored of Complaints]

Good for you!!

[Whispering Willow]

Mtncove 03 Thanks for your intelligent comments- I can see that a lot of people have the right idea but unfortunately some get stuck on individual comments or anologies. It seems to me that when people get hooked up on one small anology or comment they are loosing sight of the big picture or they don't have a good counter argument. It seems to me that people are having a dificult time making a good argument for the gun club remaining unregulated and to the detriment of the majority of the nearby public. I don't think anyone wants to remove a good up-standing business from Azusa, I certainly do not. However all businesses should be regulated according to their industry and be a good neighbor. When the city of Duarte complained some years ago, they redirected the firing towards the City of Azusa because there were fewer complaints from this side. Today I spoke to a resident from Duarte who says he is still terribly annoyed by the noise. Is the gun club being a good neighbor? Are they following the rules? It doesn't look like it. Let them enclose it and regulate the lead they are putting into the enviroment and they can stay. I know they are backed by the great and mighty Vulcan Mining Co. but might should not make right. They need to follow the rules like all other businesses or clubs.

[Jen]

(reposting to correct a typo)

We live in a capitalist society, as you well know. There are inherent risks in almost all, if not all, investments and businesses. Some have more risks than others. Someone who invests into a strip club, adult store, gun club, or an illegal business, knows that they are taking on more risk than other types of businesses. I have a friend that has a similar type business in another country and he is always being pressured by the city his business is in to close down. He accepts that it is part of the business. If he is eventually forced to close, he will just invest his money into something else. Businesses come and go all of the time.

What I would like to see is businesses that give the city a good reputation stay in the city and businesses that don't, leave. I don't care if they close down or move to another location. There are other investments to be made out there. Change can be good for the city and the business owners.

[MtnCove03]

Hi Folks,

If you are interested in voicing your opinion to decrease/eliminate the sound from the gun club through mitigation measures, revising zone/code use for that area, or both, please write to our City Council at the following email addresses:

Dave Hardison: [e-mail]
Dick Stanford: [e-mail]
Diane Chagnon: [e-mail]
Joe Rocha: [e-mail]

Diane Chagnon, City Council member, mentioned she has received "several" letters from both Mountain Cove and Mirador residents on this topic.

Taking a few minutes to write an email (regardless of your opinion) could make a huge difference in the way the City Council votes on this issue at the December council meeting...

[WHISPERING WILLOW]

On Monday November 15th there will be a city council meeting to hear any comments anyone might have regarding the gun club issue. Also if anyone has cable and would like to see some of the comments made by both sides on this issue you can go to channel 55 at 7:00 P.M and view the last meeting. This might be the last opportunity anyone has to speak their peace ,as once this window of opportunity closes, the city council will make their decision in December for the duration. If you can't make it but would still like to have your opinion taken into cosideration you can write the City Council members at City of Azusa 213 E. Foothill Blvd. Azusa, Ca. 91702. Please be nice, these people are trying to make a difficult decision to benefit the greates number of people.